More of a gentle tolerance in Canada... maybe. I wonder if Americans are simply more vocal with their prejudices. As we've sadly learned with the Trucker Convoy fools, et al, there are plenty of narrow-minded (I'm being a polite Canadian) people up here. Toronto's a nice city—my daughter lives there. But there's no place like NYC!
Yes! And perhaps what makes NYC the BEST city is that people here are always happy to tell you exactly what they think. In other cities they keep you guessing...
I had a strong sense of deja vu as I read thus piece. I am a Canadian who spent many years abroad, including about 14 years in NYC. I had a green card, and kept being told when I went through US Immigration "You know, you are eligible to take out US citizenship." My response always was, "Yeah. I'm still in the dating phase. Not sure i'm ready to fully commit yet." Most of them were nonplussed by that feeble attempt at humour, and i guess they are used to dealing with people dying to get back onto the country. But when Trump got elected, it really got too crazy, even for me, who genuinely loved the US.
And I came back to Toronto (which has become a decidedly more interesting city, albeit without the charming weirdness of NYC). There's definitely more of a gentle tolerance up here. Our cable companies are shit, and we've had two full-on crashes FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTRY over the last 15 months, but at least you can get abortion on demand.
Wow that is so interesting they were essentially trying to recruit you. I am also struck by this notion of "gentle tolerance." I think in NYC a lot of people PRIDE themselves on being very demanding! Which has its pros and cons.
Maybe because I was white and looked and sounded like an American (at least their view of what Americans should be - we Canadians can "pass" very easily!).
As far as NY goes, New Yorkers can be tough, but I've never bought in to the idea that they are unfriendly. Quite the contrary. In fact, in many respects, New Yorkers are friendlier than Torontonians (who tend to be very reserved). It's one of the most unjust slurs directed against the city, because I've always found Gotham to be an incredibly warm place and I have friendships formed there that will last a lifetime. Very hospitable and helpful people. Even when I went to Rangers' games dressed in my Leafs' gear, or to Yankees Stadium with my Blue Jays t-shirt, the fans would tease, but never in a hostile way. The city embraces humour and schtick.
Don't get me started on Philly or Boston though...(you see, I've even internalised New Yorkers' biggest prejudices :-)
I never knew exiting the subway could be so complicated. Personally, when I'm in NYC, I use the nearest door and hope to hell that the people outside have the decency to let me out before they try to enter. As for the multiverse, I'm convinced that in every 'verse' people fail to observe the common decency of letting the people inside the car exit before trying to enter. Seriously, why do people do this? Can you get answers to that question, Anne?
Michael, I think the best source for this is the people who board before letting others off. These folks are elusive, however, as you only see them when they are boarding and you are (hopefully) exiting. What I can do, however, is poll random people in the park and hopefully some will admit to lacking common decency and explain themselves. This, of course, is just an excuse to bother random people in the park. I'm very excited!
Oh boy I think I am also going to ask about the people who stand IN the doorways and don't move while everyone else is trying to get in and out. I have actually been that person so maybe I will ask myself.
Hi Micheal! I've been by the Newtown Creek plant myself and don't recall an odor. But hopefully our expert Cori will be back and comment on this further.
"But not a lot of people lived in Toronto 30 years ago" is a curious statement; I'm sure I'm missing some context. I lived in Toronto 30 years ago and I can at least anecdotally confirm that lots of other people did as well. But we don't need my anecdata! There are facts!
In 1951** much more than 30 years ago**, the City of Toronto’s population was 675,754. The geographic area that is now occupied by the City of Toronto was 1,117,470.
In 2001**almost but not quote 30 years ago**, the population of the amalgamated City of Toronto was 2,481,494.
In 2011, the population of the amalgamated City of Toronto was 2,615,060.
In 2016, the population of the amalgamated City of Toronto was 2,731,571.
Fair point! I was referring to people living in the downtown core, not the entire GTA. Anne edited out a bit of my rambling, which, trust me, is to your benefit.
I've been told that downtown Toronto was much quieter at night than it is now, since people mainly lived in the suburbs and commuted in. While I wasn't there to confirm this, I know downtown Toronto contained a heck of a lot more parking lots and one-story buildings even 15 years ago than it does today. Now we have a lot of new condos that are, contrary to concerns about foreign buyers (like me!), full of people who live downtown. Torontonians love their houses, while New Yorkers have long ago accepted being crammed into apartments. As much as I appreciate the fancy amenities (like having my own thermostat!) and lack of cockroaches, new condos are less interesting than charmingly dilapidated homes that Parkside is known for or even the 60s delight that is St James Town, where no one cares if you hang your laundry or store your hoard on your balcony.
Don't worry, the newish areas of Queens and Staten Island are just as boring/interesting as Toronto's suburban developments from the same decade. Toronto's suburbs have incredible food and plenty of gems. Still, I find all suburbs less interesting to walk around in. Higher density areas and areas with lax zoning laws simply have more opportunities for delight and novelty than the monotony of planned communities that haven't had time to morph.
Thanks for getting dragged into this side-track from your original thesis. I lived in the Annex and I do remember visiting more condos when looking for student housing, and they were closer and closer to downtown over the years...and then over the years visiting, just being astonished at all the condo development and how the cityscape/skyline had evolved.
I was sure this was just a context misfire on my part, a natural part of the format!
I haven't lived in a city for a really long time, despite my years in Toronto sort of defining that as the living experience, but I left the suburbs for rural about 20 years ago and yeah, it's hard to imagine living in the suburbs for the very reasons you describe.
Anyway thanks for the vicarious exploration of moving (back, for me) to Toronto, a topic I literally have dreams about (although zero intentions).
Ah, the Annex is such a wonderful neighborhood for walking! It's the ideal streetcar suburb that's got the density to be urban while still offering space for greenery. And that architecture totally charms me!
The Toronto skyline was basically all cranes for a while now and we've hit the point where the are few easy opportunities for infill development left. So many of the condos they built look like financial instruments, rather than anything anyone would take seriously as a home. It'll be interesting to see what's next and how things evolve.
I'm always eager to hear what the city was like in the past. The Annex is one of those neighborhoods that seems to offer glimpses of previous incarnations of Toronto. It's so hard to really understand what it was like to live somewhere in another time. Or, honestly, even what it would be like to live in another place now! People's experiences of a place are so unique, which is part of the magic.
Thanks for this Steve! Wow so interesting that Toronto has grown so much since the 50s esp relative to the places I’ve lived in—Buffalo and NYC. But I think your figures sort of underline Ms. Carl’s point (which she did phrase in a peculiar way to be sure)—there are a lot of areas in Toronto that are too new to have developed much in the way of their own weirdness.
Okay got me curious, per Wikipedia, which confirms what you were saying
NYC population
1950 7,891,957
2000 8,008,278
Buffalo
1950 899,000
2000 976,000
In 1990, though, Toronto, was a major metropolitan city. Major financial center of Canada, Sports franchises in baseball, hockey, basketball, soccer and football (but no not NFL).
Monday and part of the routine is the Cafe. You are always tweaking the format and I like that. Wastewater Treatment, moving to Canada & trash. Wow. I had a political spoils summer job working in a treatment plant as a high schooler. Still remember some of that. Not that different from not wanting to know how your food is made. Reading fun stuff like your Newsletter reminds me of how much reading and listening to all sorts of different stuff is a cool creative way of thinking about NEW STUFF. Thanks. Your post led me to look up WWTP near me. That might be another story for me thanks to you.
The Newtown plant is on one of my usual running routes that I love because it's so perfectly desolate and industrial! It's also around where we took a lot of our "covid walks" in the early days of the lockdown since it was much simpler to go to places where we'd be alone and breathe fresh unfiltered air rather than deal with the awkwardness of passing freaked out masked strangers. But I had no idea they do tours! What awesomeness! Will have to sign up! Thanks Anne as always :) Meanwhile I am putting together a list of questions that I've been pondering in my 33 years as a New Yorker.
I have flown over the "digester eggs" (using the polite term!) for years coming in and out of LaGuardia. Now I know what they are. Kudos from Louisville.
More of a gentle tolerance in Canada... maybe. I wonder if Americans are simply more vocal with their prejudices. As we've sadly learned with the Trucker Convoy fools, et al, there are plenty of narrow-minded (I'm being a polite Canadian) people up here. Toronto's a nice city—my daughter lives there. But there's no place like NYC!
Yes! And perhaps what makes NYC the BEST city is that people here are always happy to tell you exactly what they think. In other cities they keep you guessing...
I had a strong sense of deja vu as I read thus piece. I am a Canadian who spent many years abroad, including about 14 years in NYC. I had a green card, and kept being told when I went through US Immigration "You know, you are eligible to take out US citizenship." My response always was, "Yeah. I'm still in the dating phase. Not sure i'm ready to fully commit yet." Most of them were nonplussed by that feeble attempt at humour, and i guess they are used to dealing with people dying to get back onto the country. But when Trump got elected, it really got too crazy, even for me, who genuinely loved the US.
And I came back to Toronto (which has become a decidedly more interesting city, albeit without the charming weirdness of NYC). There's definitely more of a gentle tolerance up here. Our cable companies are shit, and we've had two full-on crashes FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTRY over the last 15 months, but at least you can get abortion on demand.
Wow that is so interesting they were essentially trying to recruit you. I am also struck by this notion of "gentle tolerance." I think in NYC a lot of people PRIDE themselves on being very demanding! Which has its pros and cons.
Maybe because I was white and looked and sounded like an American (at least their view of what Americans should be - we Canadians can "pass" very easily!).
As far as NY goes, New Yorkers can be tough, but I've never bought in to the idea that they are unfriendly. Quite the contrary. In fact, in many respects, New Yorkers are friendlier than Torontonians (who tend to be very reserved). It's one of the most unjust slurs directed against the city, because I've always found Gotham to be an incredibly warm place and I have friendships formed there that will last a lifetime. Very hospitable and helpful people. Even when I went to Rangers' games dressed in my Leafs' gear, or to Yankees Stadium with my Blue Jays t-shirt, the fans would tease, but never in a hostile way. The city embraces humour and schtick.
Don't get me started on Philly or Boston though...(you see, I've even internalised New Yorkers' biggest prejudices :-)
Also, I was not expecting to be fascinated by a conversation about waste water treatment plants AND a story about moving to Canada. Well done, Anne!
Thank you!
I never knew exiting the subway could be so complicated. Personally, when I'm in NYC, I use the nearest door and hope to hell that the people outside have the decency to let me out before they try to enter. As for the multiverse, I'm convinced that in every 'verse' people fail to observe the common decency of letting the people inside the car exit before trying to enter. Seriously, why do people do this? Can you get answers to that question, Anne?
Michael, I think the best source for this is the people who board before letting others off. These folks are elusive, however, as you only see them when they are boarding and you are (hopefully) exiting. What I can do, however, is poll random people in the park and hopefully some will admit to lacking common decency and explain themselves. This, of course, is just an excuse to bother random people in the park. I'm very excited!
Happy to give you the excuse! I think most New Yorkers will have an opinion on this matter, even if most New Yorkers are part of the problem.
Oh boy I think I am also going to ask about the people who stand IN the doorways and don't move while everyone else is trying to get in and out. I have actually been that person so maybe I will ask myself.
Were the water plants smelly?
Only the ones in "affordable" neighborhoods
Hi Micheal! I've been by the Newtown Creek plant myself and don't recall an odor. But hopefully our expert Cori will be back and comment on this further.
New life motto: “Weirdness takes time to
develop.”
Great catch!
Ooooh I didn't think about this out of the original context but it's true!
"But not a lot of people lived in Toronto 30 years ago" is a curious statement; I'm sure I'm missing some context. I lived in Toronto 30 years ago and I can at least anecdotally confirm that lots of other people did as well. But we don't need my anecdata! There are facts!
In 1951** much more than 30 years ago**, the City of Toronto’s population was 675,754. The geographic area that is now occupied by the City of Toronto was 1,117,470.
In 2001**almost but not quote 30 years ago**, the population of the amalgamated City of Toronto was 2,481,494.
In 2011, the population of the amalgamated City of Toronto was 2,615,060.
In 2016, the population of the amalgamated City of Toronto was 2,731,571.
via https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/accountability-operations-customer-service/access-city-information-or-records/city-of-toronto-archives/using-the-archives/research-by-topic/toronto-history-faqs/
Fair point! I was referring to people living in the downtown core, not the entire GTA. Anne edited out a bit of my rambling, which, trust me, is to your benefit.
I've been told that downtown Toronto was much quieter at night than it is now, since people mainly lived in the suburbs and commuted in. While I wasn't there to confirm this, I know downtown Toronto contained a heck of a lot more parking lots and one-story buildings even 15 years ago than it does today. Now we have a lot of new condos that are, contrary to concerns about foreign buyers (like me!), full of people who live downtown. Torontonians love their houses, while New Yorkers have long ago accepted being crammed into apartments. As much as I appreciate the fancy amenities (like having my own thermostat!) and lack of cockroaches, new condos are less interesting than charmingly dilapidated homes that Parkside is known for or even the 60s delight that is St James Town, where no one cares if you hang your laundry or store your hoard on your balcony.
Don't worry, the newish areas of Queens and Staten Island are just as boring/interesting as Toronto's suburban developments from the same decade. Toronto's suburbs have incredible food and plenty of gems. Still, I find all suburbs less interesting to walk around in. Higher density areas and areas with lax zoning laws simply have more opportunities for delight and novelty than the monotony of planned communities that haven't had time to morph.
Thanks for getting dragged into this side-track from your original thesis. I lived in the Annex and I do remember visiting more condos when looking for student housing, and they were closer and closer to downtown over the years...and then over the years visiting, just being astonished at all the condo development and how the cityscape/skyline had evolved.
I was sure this was just a context misfire on my part, a natural part of the format!
I haven't lived in a city for a really long time, despite my years in Toronto sort of defining that as the living experience, but I left the suburbs for rural about 20 years ago and yeah, it's hard to imagine living in the suburbs for the very reasons you describe.
Anyway thanks for the vicarious exploration of moving (back, for me) to Toronto, a topic I literally have dreams about (although zero intentions).
Ah, the Annex is such a wonderful neighborhood for walking! It's the ideal streetcar suburb that's got the density to be urban while still offering space for greenery. And that architecture totally charms me!
The Toronto skyline was basically all cranes for a while now and we've hit the point where the are few easy opportunities for infill development left. So many of the condos they built look like financial instruments, rather than anything anyone would take seriously as a home. It'll be interesting to see what's next and how things evolve.
I'm always eager to hear what the city was like in the past. The Annex is one of those neighborhoods that seems to offer glimpses of previous incarnations of Toronto. It's so hard to really understand what it was like to live somewhere in another time. Or, honestly, even what it would be like to live in another place now! People's experiences of a place are so unique, which is part of the magic.
Thanks for this Steve! Wow so interesting that Toronto has grown so much since the 50s esp relative to the places I’ve lived in—Buffalo and NYC. But I think your figures sort of underline Ms. Carl’s point (which she did phrase in a peculiar way to be sure)—there are a lot of areas in Toronto that are too new to have developed much in the way of their own weirdness.
Okay got me curious, per Wikipedia, which confirms what you were saying
NYC population
1950 7,891,957
2000 8,008,278
Buffalo
1950 899,000
2000 976,000
In 1990, though, Toronto, was a major metropolitan city. Major financial center of Canada, Sports franchises in baseball, hockey, basketball, soccer and football (but no not NFL).
Anyway, just being nerdy/Canadian :)
Monday and part of the routine is the Cafe. You are always tweaking the format and I like that. Wastewater Treatment, moving to Canada & trash. Wow. I had a political spoils summer job working in a treatment plant as a high schooler. Still remember some of that. Not that different from not wanting to know how your food is made. Reading fun stuff like your Newsletter reminds me of how much reading and listening to all sorts of different stuff is a cool creative way of thinking about NEW STUFF. Thanks. Your post led me to look up WWTP near me. That might be another story for me thanks to you.
Mark I would LOVE to read a story by you about your local WWTP. I’m sure it’d be very interesting and funny!
I think you are in the small circle of folks able to make WWTP fun
The Newtown plant is on one of my usual running routes that I love because it's so perfectly desolate and industrial! It's also around where we took a lot of our "covid walks" in the early days of the lockdown since it was much simpler to go to places where we'd be alone and breathe fresh unfiltered air rather than deal with the awkwardness of passing freaked out masked strangers. But I had no idea they do tours! What awesomeness! Will have to sign up! Thanks Anne as always :) Meanwhile I am putting together a list of questions that I've been pondering in my 33 years as a New Yorker.
I'm sure we could make a whole issue out of your questions Maria. Looking forward!
I have flown over the "digester eggs" (using the polite term!) for years coming in and out of LaGuardia. Now I know what they are. Kudos from Louisville.
So happy to be of service! :)